Meet an Unpopular Futurologist, James Cridland

March 17th, 2017 · 57 mins 31 secs

About this Episode

James Cridland is a broadcast radio and podcast speaker, writer, blogger, expert, guru, basically: a futurologist. Although we talk a little about radio, the gist of this episode is about the business of being a thought leader in a niche field. We also discuss bookkeeping and whether or not overuse notices should come from you?

Automatically generated transcript

Feel free to ignore this, it's just so the podcast becomes somewhat searchable

Siri: [00:00:00] This is unpopular.

Josh Withers: [00:00:01] Everyone this is your humble host Josh Withers, welcome to th Unpopular podcast. If you're listening through your regular podcast on other episodes go to unpopular dog show. And before this week's episode with James Cridland who's got a really cool title introduced to in a second I wasn't in about what's actually happening on Cnpopular. You see there's a free blog unpopular. This I see there's this free podcast and also also the members only blog which is available unpopular education anaphylaxis Alec was on the air is about accepting cash as a way of payment. A final personal pain. There's new better ways. Also why close down the Facebook group. That's right. The unpopular Facebook group did a slack thing is still happening or just no group like that I have no group but a big one that over in this week is about how to download images to share for your Instagram with our screen shot and screen shotting is straight from the mouth of the devil. And you just need to do that anymore. This week's episode is worth all the noise. According a cafe in Brisbane iconic coffee awesome location quiet but not quite enough. James Cridland is the guest. And we'll let him explain to you what he does.

James Cridland: [00:01:07] When I say I say radio futurologist and they look at me and they laugh and they say what's that. And I said is a made up name that I put on my business card which is actually true but I'm a writer a speaker and a consultant helping radio companies understand what's next. Next on your arse. So what have you tried logistically. Just reply to me like a plain binary.

Josh Withers: [00:01:33] James is a guest on the show because I want to talk about the business side of the future all. Her just being an author writer podcast a speaker email create a blogger and 2017 and the business idea that automation even just just plain or running a business but also to nerd at about radio because James has been the one to wait longer than I ever did I was only and I'm ready for a better decade. Southern Cross austereo Fairfax Media a couple of community stations. James has been doing it almost forever. Enjoy.

James Cridland: [00:02:04] So this is my 20 something ninth year in radio. And I've done and I worked in lots of different bits of radio. But now I'm mostly working in the interesting bits in terms of you know new platforms. Digital radio Internet outcasting. Yeah. And also you know. And also really helping companies understand where things are. Things are changing just as in any business the way that we consume radio is changing the way that we do the radio and it's money is is changing you know so I help. Radio stations and other. And other folk understand how to make my stuff.

[00:02:48] I want to talk about the business of being a future all of us which is a person that may not have been written you know soon but can we just start on radio because I'm on XM Radio which is sort of like a dirty word. But I still love either a dirty word or a very sensible word who pay my bills. I can press you through your e-mail.

[00:03:14] Is that was I going to get to it. But I appreciate your passion for things Radio and also. Would you agree that the word radio is it. Is it diminishing or is it expanding too. We're going to gather up podcasts and digital streaming and streaming is radio becoming more of a collective term.

[00:03:37] Yeah I think I think we've got a real problem in the English language in radio I mean three different things it means a device that picks up radio waves. That's another one. And also radio I mean a style of programming style of audio. And I tend to talk radio as being a shared experience with him connection. Podcasting is radio is not alive. And actually dirty secret. Most of the radio that you hear quite a lot of it isn't life either. So you know so I think that you know when you look at radio is these days it's a much broader change that was in essence you know everything from podcasting to internet radio to even more fancy things such as NPR one which is. That. You can get here it is mainly in the US that is kind of like talkback radio. But it's only place news stories and stuff that you're going to be interested in.

[00:04:36] So I'm hopeful ish.

[00:04:39] So it's kind of Spotify ish. But for radio Spotify but for Radio National. So if you imagine you know Radio National without any of the boring stuff on any of the things that Australians laughingly call sport as you can tell I'm a Brit so I'm allowed to say that frankly. You know then then. New technology will actually help you achieve that. So. Yes there's lots of really interesting. Interesting things. And by the way. You know old fashioned radio fan AM radio still tremendously popular over 90 percent of people tune into it every single week here in Australia. So you know it's a wonderful it's a wonderful business to be.

[00:05:16] I read an article recently saying that my my biggest. The biggest thing in my mind is that podcasting is growing and growing and growing and being podcasting in various ways for many many years and you know there's at least three or four Arkle and archiver through for all podcast online and one of them that had measured success. But today in 2017 podcasting is is going phenomenal I'm sure you saw there was a report this week or last week that a tell us it was fourteen point four percent growth allowed to mallinckrodt and that the average the average listener of podcasts is listening to all of the six different shows which the average listener of radio. And this is a start. I'm just thinking that they listened to two shows maybe two. You had to look into the first half of two of our stations. Yeah. Yeah. And so. So you're podcasting is this. I feel like this is this burgeoning beast that. That. Is. It's a start of as this reel and the show. And I assure our kids with my ex are just making things. And now there's companies like something called the stereo with Comcast one in Australia and an NPR one in. America which is not a corporation but it was the sort of corporate element that does ads play on radio here and here acts and all these kind of stuff.

[00:06:36] MILLER Yeah no indeed and I think you know podcasting is definitely growing. You know the rules can say you know 24 percent of nothing is nothing but you know the amount of consumption of podcasting in Australia is growing.

[00:06:55] You know I mean a word of warning in America where podcasting is the strongest. Forty five percent of people still don't know what a podcast is. So you know there is a real education issue and there's a real issue of once you know what a podcast is how do you find the good ones. Yeah. And that's one of the things that. You can see a lot of Comcast apps trying to fix. This year. Because that's really hard. But you know forecasting is doing tremendously. I think you know particularly in the US where there's a lot of money being poured into what is costing big money. Yeah. And I think it's great for radio as a whole because it actually means that. You know young audiences are listening to speech radio which.

[00:07:41] You know she was really used to. Yeah yeah.

[00:07:44] Look at my work thirty 35 people of my generation are only just beginning. It's all part of our podcast because we wouldn't dare listen to it and wouldn't tune in to for b c you wouldn't have tuned into you know tgb or any of that.

[00:07:58] No he's actually and I think that is really interesting and really exciting that lots of younger people are discovering. Speech Radio which is kind of an accident because the only reason why. Why podcasting is speech is that you can't get the music right. But it's a lovely accent because it actually means that people are discovering. Yeah talk talk radio in America talk radio itself has had the best year ever since you know since since many years. Partly due to the fact that people understand what podcasting is and so therefore what talk radio stations are. But I also partly due to that.

[00:08:38] Wonderful brilliant president that I'm going to be up in in May I won't hear a bad word said again. Half me lovely man if anybody from the USA is listening. All hell to.

[00:08:55] Do. This is a thought I just had because it's all our podcast thing. And this is a different generation with the podcast talk radio. Do you think the word podcast has got a problem like the fact that it's a derivative of iPod. Yeah. It's a rubbish name I like because my my kids of course. But when we do they will notify us like this. It used to be on their iPhone there was an iPod iPod. But it doesn't exist and not music. And I'm going to buy an iPod an Apple store. But you lock you know out of this book.

[00:09:30] Yes. Now you know podcast is a rubbish name but it's here to stay. Everybody understands what it means. I don't think anybody is going to change it. I mean you know one of the big podcasts in the US tried to change it to net cast. Rules. As a whole. Yeah. And he desperately was trying to change it. And you know that casts a the time and it just got no way.

[00:09:56] And you know that happens you know it's interesting because. Marketing point of view that means that you know still people are a bit confused as to whether or not you need an iPod to listen to a podcast. Yeah absolutely. But I think once we get over that you know. I'm I'm sure there'll be well there are lots of these weird portmanteau words that exist in the English language. But we've grown very used to you know a petticoat.

[00:10:21] Nobody thinks of that as being a little cold. That's what it is you know so. So yes I think it's a marketing issue but I don't think anybody is going to set and rebranding.

[00:10:33] So this podcast is aimed at people that have left their job and saw business or they're hoping to leave their job and starting a small business and they're. Building niche small like a sustainable and so impactful and. Influential but they're not they're not trying to win everyone. So they're not trying to be the coca-cola. Or the Microsoft Apple. They're trying to be the little guy and still just be sustainable in the market.

[00:11:07] How do you see those kind of people like me as a marriage celebrant or the or the the yeah the the local small business. You see them fitting in to this new world of podcasting and also traditional broadcast right.

[00:11:22] Well I mean I used to say so you know you used to be in charge of a lot. Of a lot of developers and designers. One of the radio stations I worked out and one of the things that I said to them was your your your employment contract might forbid you for working for somebody else but please work for somebody else while you're working here please do your own stuff in the evening. If you need time to do things during the day that's cool let me know. Because I'm really firmly believe that actually to have something on the side. I think there's an a computer not calling a side hustle. Yeah I find very strange. But anyway something on the side is actually great education. You learn so much from it that you can actually use in the job that you're currently earning for your 95. Absolutely. But you can also then take that and take the next step when your when you're ready and you know a great manager and I'm not sure I was a great manager great a great manager. Their job is actually to make you the very best employee that you can possibly be. And if that. Actually means you leaving the business because you've now learned so much that you think you can run a business on you on your own. Great. From my point of view you know that's my job done. My job is to grow is to grow an employee and make them feel as good as you know. And to grow their skills so. I think it's a really important thing.

[00:12:55] I used to always recommend. People ended up doing that. So you know things like podcasting things like you know what you learn when you're doing podcasting is a lot of. Computer skills you know a lot of editing audio skills but you also learn marketing. You learn the art work you learn how to write. You learn how to. Produce stuff. You know you learn lots of skills that are probably quite useful in any day to day job anyway. You know being able to succinctly you know succinctly write down something and communicating on a podcast means that actually in your next House Call you will have you will do that factor you know. So it's something that you know I think I think we can only help.

[00:13:44] What are the early areas of of advertising. And also. They used the right word here but it was just that content. So I've been lucky enough to be a guest on many shows and my role has allowed itself. Whether it's the whether it's spinning off a call topic or being an expert. But there's also the value of most radio stations. What's the average. There's like a 10 to 12 minutes of an hour or whatever it is and that's that space and people. And the average business is paying for advertising and exposure.

[00:14:24] And there are two different ways of getting it. Apparently the content or the pay for advertising. Yeah. Well what do you say to the small business today that is thinking maybe there's room for me on potholes or on radio.

[00:14:40] Well I mean I think that are two different jobs. So you know the point of getting onto onto the radio is that radio is a great mass market medium that reaches you know in many cases you know 25 30 percent of the population of a town in one fell swoop. It's really easy. To get names out there. And it's also. You know when you look at radio Typically you will about 40 percent 45 percent of radio is listened to in a car. And quite a lot of the time you're driving to a shopping mall. You are driving to somewhere. Where you are going to spend some money and right place to advertise you know so. So really it does a really good way. Good job in terms of brand awareness. Good job in terms of connecting people with what your product is what your. You know. What you do. What you can do with a podcast. You can actually go far deeper you can actually begin to offer people that are interested in say your a fishing shop you yourself. Fishing tackle. By producing a podcast which is specifically around how to be a better fisherman. Or a better fish person I should say. You know then you are actually offering. You're actually offering something to that community super serving fat community and giving them reasons why you know your business is the most trustworthy and helpful. Business out there. So I think that they do very different things. It's good. But you know.

[00:16:15] Let's move on to you as a as a business person. Do you want to avoid the term like you're a business person.

[00:16:21] Yeah I think so. Somebody call me. Some people can call me commune entrepreneur. Yeah. Because some of the things that I do and have done.

[00:16:31] That Yeah. Yeah. So. So what does your business like. Like when you look at your wireless business plan and like I've encountered you as as someone that provides an e-mail newsletter. Yeah. And there was an opportunity to financially support them. And I took that option.

[00:16:48] And I'll be spending four dollars a month. Why is it.

[00:16:54] Where it leads. What does your why you are a business person.

[00:16:59] And so I think what I've learned is that if you make. Up so roughly my business is. Of years writing for radio station websites and for. Radio and magazines and those sorts of things.

[00:17:17] When you say radio station websites do you mean like that here. What do you mean.

[00:17:22] It really is a kind of yeah I think so yeah. So you know about a third of the revenue I get from that about a third of the revenue I get from being a public speaker and a third of the revenue I get from running my own my own media information Yeah. And you know and what I earn from running a newsletter is simply I just pray that. I. Have an electric bill. And that's you know that's really why that's that. So really you know you look at the sort of. The three areas. But a lot of what I do is around marketing and marketing myself as a as a speaker. But one of the things that I learned relatively early on is that. The proportions of that business which are very seasonal. So I'm sure that there are portions of your business which is incredibly this. Way you end up being incredibly busy for a couple of months of the year and completely not busy. Yeah a couple of months there. And so what I learned very early on is I needed stuff to keep me busy. And stuff that I could work on when the other things I'm doing particularly speaking at conferences when that is less you know when that side of. The business is less you know. So. You know so very much looking at okay well how can I do things that I can if I need to drop a couple of weeks. How can I get my sister a sustainable amount of money in from doing things which can be kind of automated.

[00:19:02] So that's what my media information sites is for. And so basically the. Thinking behind media to info which is its name. Is there anything you want to know about the media. Yes they're both directory of radio stations and TV magazines and all of that but also you know people who work telephone numbers or that kind of stuff. But also it does a lot of a lot of news news aggregation as well. So. But the whole plan around that was. How can I make this so that it is completely automatic so that if I can spend an hour on it a day. Great if I can only spend five minutes on it a day then it still works fine. Yeah. And so a lot of that has been around the technology and make sure that. You know. That I can actually do well.

[00:19:51] I want to ask about the technology side of it. In a moment.

[00:19:54] But we were talking before the podcast about that that marriage between exposure our marriage with the always on brand so on ABC. The.

[00:20:12] Marriage between exposure dollars and Australian dollars and the kempinski conversion rate we feel that the news-journal that a lot more than than the average punter so so you know you have like an algorithm in your head you have. What have you faced that. Because look I'm not you for this patel's. No no. So thank you for your time.

[00:20:42] Shake your for me and I'll show you a link on the blog. But but. Again head to head. Kind of.

[00:20:50] Yeah I do that. I think that is for a freelancer which I would also kind of put myself in too.

[00:20:56] I think that's always the difficulty is how much stuff you want to do for free and how much stuff do you want to own if you get paid for it. Yeah. And so what I've done with stuff that I do for free is I try and get the very best value. But you know it's something that I talk an awful lot at radio stations is you make a great amount of content. You broadcast it once you delete it. What a waste of time. Yeah a lot. Why aren't you doing more with that content and EXACT same from the kind of things that I do. So for example I will write a weekly column.

[00:21:36] For. Such a writing for the Web site in the US called All Access because I saw that as being really good. Name awareness really good a way of getting my name out and what I wanted is that I can help with. And then I suddenly thought hang on a minute. All access is really only the website for the end for the US radio market.

[00:22:00] And it's carried in radio day sorry in radio info kill me radio info always on very inexpensive radio today.

[00:22:13] I broadcast it on a radio station in the UK or in radio there's a radio station in the UK called in radio and it's for people who are in right. It's amazing. Like are we talking broadcast yet. Really it's amazing. It's the 24 hour radio station which is there for people who work in radio. It's major. Based. I don't.

[00:22:35] Know but that's properly niche and properly unpopular. Is a likable voice right. What is what do you. Most definitely know.

[00:22:49] So you know I've sort of taken that and it's now in lots of different countries it's now you know um um um um getting the very best out of that contact that I possibly can't in the same way that the newsletter. Actually starts its life. So it's a newsletter of lots of different bits of. Interesting news about where the future of radio is going. And that actually starts its its life as a by-product of me going through the RSS feeds every morning going. What's interesting. What do I find interesting and tweeting them. And all I do at the end of the week is I got a little piece of code which goes off gets all the tweets that I've sent. Chucked it into. Into a tax file for me to then edit down.

[00:23:38] So you know again I am taking the content that I already created for one medium and I'm repurposing that for another. That's right. So you know so a lot of a lot of what I do I used to be I used to say when I ran the original social media website in the UK I always used to say to my team. There is not a delete button. In the content management system and there's a very good reason for that because I don't want you to rethink any single piece of content you put up. So write it solutes evergreen racist views. Will always work. Never take anything off. And I think that's. Great. That's great advice for any any business who is you know who produces content.

[00:24:21] Think how much of the same the same procedure.

[00:24:24] I think Hamish and Andy right now have been in a radio studio for the last three months three or four days with a.

[00:24:35] Silly about the code.

[00:24:39] The tweets to newsletter because if I did it I'd use it as a. Land and feel I said Look at all of my tweets put the links out for me and. He could actually start to melt some draft or something from there. What do you do as well it is a fully custom so I use.

[00:25:00] I use buffer sticks for your tweets and Facebook and get this sticks on a variety of different places so that's a nice easy way for me to get my name out onto linked in rubbish which I never use. But you know I'm there every single time I'm there every couple of minutes.

[00:25:19] Someone asked me the other day. You're very active a little like and I don't know my password.

[00:25:27] So I use a buffer. I then wrote a piece of code to get into the buffer API to probably the information out it's actually what it is. Who is it that is taking. I think it takes my Twitter. I think it might take my Facebook ones because it's also ordering it in terms of the amount of clicks. So because that's what buffer does so therefore it's actually pulling the information out in terms of the most popular. Which is why theoretically at least you should see the most popular the most popular pieces of news being at the top of the. Of. The newsletter. And you know because that's another rangar of them. Very quickly sorted. So yes I. So I've written some of that code myself to get into the API. But otherwise you know it's relatively off the shelf.

[00:26:22] Why a newsletter an old prefix that by saying isn't much a housum has really started doing.

[00:26:30] A morning news letter that used to be the early season breakfast toast.

[00:26:35] And I personally look in the last year or two I've actually found this new love that e-mail newsletter. So I probably pay. I'm just doing a quick maths in my head. I probably pay. 200 dollars a year to receive it. Yeah which seems like like baltic's because these people think their e-mail inbox inboxes this place of hell and torment. It's literally the place you go when you die. But I've I've personally before he let it go on this journey of like and answer to everything I don't want. But I want to wake up in the morning. There's a bunch of know newsletter that I want to see or chosen and a lot of them.

[00:27:17] And I I use newsletters. I think I actually newsletters a much maligned. I think there are lots of people who read them. Lots of people who appreciate you who particularly read them you know so as you can tell I'm a Brit. I work for a long time in London one of four things to do on on the tube on the subway. There is two. You have no mobile phone coverage because you're underground. And so one of the things one of the things to do is to go through your your e-mail. You know and get rid of all the stuff that you don't want and read the stuff that you're interested in. And that was where I read most of my newsletters. Underground. You know I'm. Reading stuff and finding out you know what was going on. I think that you know newsletters are. Kind of a hidden thing they're not very trendy but actually loads of people use them. And I think you know as part of a platform strategy using things like Twitter Facebook. Is going to take it too fast but I'm not stupid. But you know using using those kinds of services you know. I think e-mail newsletters are really possible and at the end of the day what I would like is for people to equate my name with future thinking around radio and that's all that I really care about is getting on getting on that ladder so that soon as people. Want somebody that understands what's going on in this world. Then they instantly think of me.

[00:28:54] But you know it's really it is really way at the bottom of my news that I have a thing which is what's in my diary. And it's really an excuse for me to show that people are using me. So. I say you know next week I'm in Amsterdam and. And then in London and then the following week. And what is fascinating about that is that is tucked away at the bottom of. The newsletter very regular guy get emails from people in Amsterdam in London saying oh sure you're coming to our stand next week let's back up and that's you know I think really shows how much how much is read. And you know it's like he's got what two thousand seven hundred people who read it every single week. Sorry he gets it every single part clicks. Because because you can get details not just of how many people are clicking but who click it. What story picks are coming from in credibly high powered You know senior people within Radio. And it's great to be able to. Show that it's great to be able to understand that you are actually reaching some very important people. In doing. This.

[00:30:09] I feel everyone's got their own ways of interacting with email. But I get a few link e-mails. You're the only radio on I feel the techie ones I'm in. It's like taking early ones and what I'll do is I'll email and I do read it. And then as I see a link they'll control click and just open up. 30 new browser tabs and then through the rest of the day slowly. I'm on the tab change a lot. I'll start a process in one tab and that's save another tab. I quickly read the article and so it's it's a really it's a good resource it's enjoyable. I like. I especially like the newcomer.

[00:30:49] You're more. I feel that your foot in the digital world is. More in the digital world than other people read here which which I find really refreshing because one of the reasons that I. Lost the passion to earn a living in radio was was that before I ever worked on radio I was a nerd first read broadcast so you know and this is this is back before the internet was even broadband was dial up and the capabilities were low. Two years ago to you.

[00:31:22] Brzezinski we do. And I always appreciate it.

[00:31:28] Just the possibilities of what we do with this digital thing. And it's never been about all the twitters the end all be all but it's about Twitter's cool. But then there's this cool. And that was cool. But for all of us I really enjoyed it. And I was always the black dark and there was a meeting with a magazine or a meeting with producers or whatever was it was it was like I said I'm here what if we made a video about that or what. Well what if we. And I said I just I found a hard operating environment I was like no no no. Everything down there the shootable to get him to read Digital's is really secondary. And I found that frustrating. So I like that you say a little bit more time and that. Is why were there was a little bit more time on that side of things I think is fair and I think you know also you need to. You need to balance that.

[00:32:23] You know. With what a commercial. Radio Company is for. Absolutely and I found it I found it really interesting I work for two very different companies. Virgin Radio which was a very small comparatively national radio station in the UK had a great history of innovation. So it was the first radio station to stream online in Europe. And when I started working you know I was essentially given a job of. Get a press release every year every two months. With something called the Virgin Radio is doing. That was one of my eyes and eyes open and it was a really useful thing. I being sort of a point. It wasn't. So it's very few of the Virgin company are owned by brands and I know it already been sold twice. Yeah. And it was. A That was a very useful. A very useful thing because it did mean that you could innovate but you had to be very quick at innovating and very you know. So while one of the things we did in March 2005 as we launched what we would now call the world's first radio know radio download on your mobile phone. Bills creola you know which you know that was that was on a Nokia symbian and Sony ericsson phone and. Yeah.

[00:33:46] And on the data costs it cost you over 20 over 20 Australian dollars an hour to listen. So this was dedicated listener it was only in a ICE ICE.

[00:33:57] So you can imagine how it's going to get you know. So that was a prime point of trying something seeing if it works. And then we started broadcasting on the Nintendo we and everybody was really excited about that. And you know of course some trees when you compare that with. The BBC and the BBC where I work for a couple of years you know it was a very different environment and you know one of their senior managers took me inside one day and they said. Where do you come from. I said I have a radio and this explains some of the firsts that we've done. And he said yes well it's all very well but you see here at the BBC we don't do things fast. We do them properly. There is a certain amount.

[00:34:50] Of correctness in that I think essential all this.

[00:34:55] But I think actually.

[00:34:57] Somewhere in the middle is a good a good plan. In that you invest in new things innovate new things but don't invest too much fail fail fast and fail.

[00:35:08] I was literally told once before at all this out Fairfax Radio. We don't go like this I mean it's. Like. A lot.

[00:35:20] And so there are local programming survived. Happening. It's great.

[00:35:28] I do there is. I mean you know a wider point there is an awful lot of copying. Yeah there is an awful lot of looking for other people to. Copy. And to a degree that's a very good thing. Too. To another degree. Actually. At the end of the day people will come to you if you are doing. Interesting things. Or people well in this particular. In this particular way.

[00:35:55] Virgin Radio had I think. A 3 percent share so only three if you're not. In the radio business only only three hours out of 100. Yeah in the UK were spent listening to Virgin Radio. So it's tiny. So as a result we almost never own any advertising agencies missed. And so what my job and the job of others at the station was to remind our advertising agencies. We existed genuinely the point of doing some of this stuff and I think you know at the end of the day when it comes down to whatever business you're in it's reminding people that you exist reminding people what you are what you stand for. And if. Everybody knows of Virgin Radio or used to know and radio when it's doing just it. In its current form as. A radio brand that was really good at innovating really good at trying new things and I think that's you know that's a great thing.

[00:36:52] This week they actually shut down the Facebook group for the unpopular. And. Everything.

[00:36:58] And the reason for it was it too unpopular. The way they were. It just came from a point that it wasn't it wasn't active. There was members in it. I would automatically post to locals. But it wasn't that I was an actor and I realize that. Having something that's amazing and the kind of in my artillery was more of a believer in you know just got a Facebook group definitely and Grace having a great Facebook is great. And yes I would.

[00:37:33] Would you like when you look at radio stations. Thoughts sometimes you don't have to have a Web site. Facebook. I guess you could just be an amazing yefim station.

[00:37:45] Yeah. I mean I think I think you know. What. So I think that there are two things that I think. I think firstly if you are going to do something you know again from a BBC point of view do it properly. And if your. You know I follow a few people on Facebook whose idea of using Facebook. I've just having this victim. It is different. I promise that. Their idea about using Facebook is to just automatically repost something I posted somewhere else. I need to go in and. Engage with that content. And I think that that's a great example of. You know doing something properly and actually you know to run a decent Facebook community. He's got to be a community not just for cars.

[00:38:31] That have a like a like an AP or a producer or a person.

[00:38:36] I mean you know in many many stations now and many companies now there are people whose job is to do social media. I mean you only need to have a look. For example last weekend what was going on at Cooper is the beer company. Well you know Cooper did some interesting you know interesting choices in terms of supporting certain certain groups. And. Which. To do with. Same sex marriage and all that kind of stuff. And. Social media was probably the reason why that he completely backtracked on that because there were enough people who. Got upset about. It. And. They needed. And by the way they had. Good social media person to actually engage with people and to let the rest of the business know that but they made a big mistake. And you know. And so you really do you if you're a company of a certain size you really do need a decent social media. Strategy. And you know quite apart from anything else just go onto Google Maps look at. What people have. Reviewed your business. Yeah. Some of that might be. Why.

[00:39:53] By quantifying. Is such a change from I remember when I first started what was dodgy capital. Murder. The youngest guy in the building who at some point was me. You know you just look after a website or an assembly line you say radio social Web sites.

[00:40:14] I forget which set them all was one of the sea of people that was was on my Web website if you know what I wear because there was a apple. There was an Apple app that I had a website. Yeah. There was nothing to behold.

[00:40:28] Well I mean you know there are lots of. Lots of websites out there that are run by businesses. You know by the chief executive some yeah.

[00:40:38] And and to a degree that's fine if. You know. If you don't. You know you can do something which is simple straightforward does the job. I find it interesting. For example if you look at some of them some of the. You know you're going to talk radio of some of the radio station websites here. Are trying some of the sort of gossip sites and news sites and lots of information lots of you know you never guess what Kim can't ask you did now and how amazing what happened on on my kitchen rules. Yes. And I always kind of this kind of stuff whereas. There are other radio station websites. Which are. Just simply there. To tell you about the radio station to give pictures of the presenters. And everybody wants to know what people look like. And still let you listen. And there is an argument and there's a radio station in the UK up to you which is Tony's home. Of just getting rid of all of this additional. Crap. You know focus on. What you do which is you run a great radio station and your main kpi. Your main target is to get more people listening. And however you do that. Is the important stuff and I think there are lots of both radio stations but also other companies who lose focus and who. You know think of themselves as being. You know. Another I'm not a career male online friend. Whereas actually you know that's not what people want. People.

[00:42:05] You know people are genuinely visiting websites to find out more about that particular company and not really be entertained by the copy and paste of what came in.

[00:42:17] Funny story in that respect. I was recently in the middle of nowhere. That's where I spent way too much of my time. And I remember thinking about the world's health. I don't think there will be a commercial world class anywhere near here. I'm driving for hours both the ABC will have like a radio national am something and I found it really hard to just find some frequencies because because I did seek and seek. So the string all single wasn't strong enough to capture the radio you see. But I thought some timing the ABC was Googling ABC something something something was going to break rules like the ABC website had all the latest news on everything and everyone news on the frickin frequency. Yeah it is high.

[00:43:06] And funnily enough. On Media dot info. Some of the most trafficked pages. How do I listen to. Name station. And I've done that very deliberately. Firstly because I've got that data. But also secondly because you know that is what people typing. Into Google you know yes.

[00:43:30] Triple and frequency. Which is a lot harder to me into these. Things as they used to be five. Now there's Hummer. Know. OK.

[00:43:46] I in the podcast I'm possibly about to fix a problem or to suggest that or service or just merely a problem tell you I can't talk about the possibilities. And so this can be a very long or very short section but is there is there a popular online console.

[00:44:04] Do you know that there is there is something which I find. Really interesting. And I think I've got a solution. I'd like to run that solution past you.

[00:44:14] This is great. If I could just say nothing in a week.

[00:44:18] So when you are when you are doing a lot of freelance work. There's a lot of nice communication that you do with your kind of things like. Kind of a brilliant idea. I'd love to talk to you about it. Ha ha. You know I was thinking about what you said the other week and I thought of this and. All of that really nice positive conversation but there's also the negative conversation as well of what you think might pay the bill at some point. The boring stuff of trying to organise meetings. And. You know trying to get. The space and people star is particularly when time zones are involved you know as well. You know I think all across Australia. What. Do you have any sort of any sort of. My my my sort of thinking on that is really don't want my name my name to be associated with. Do you think you're going to pay the bill. Yeah. What are you what are your thoughts on that. I mean I'll tell you what what I've thought of doing.

[00:45:27] Is I have a fake account so. This is exactly what I was going to say. And gender isn't. Could be a fake person. And she chased this all of the e-mails. Zero zero for my counting my bookkeeping and I know many people would use the road purely for the.

[00:45:48] Profit loss as I use it for the customer facing end of business account spacing so I so when clients get nervous they get it from zero and they pay it off as they come in they're going to reconciles my being insulted all the one I use or that I'm doing half of it. So my invoices come from my bank account person. Because I so I say they like my party like a lot of take away from you. But my mother was very happy very like a very personal. Yes. And the truth is that some of those people do have. Just this week alone like her credit card fail them the things we're living in the real world.

[00:46:28] Weddings are expensive. In real life things happen. And so not in some time when there's an account issue it isn't that they will have a blackened heart and they want to kill you. It's that it's just it's just life. You know it's just going to. Yeah. And so we're also not I don't want my name in such a conversation and so other fake accounts.

[00:46:48] I'm glad I'm glad that you feel the same way. Yeah. I think. I think my counter person might be called Robyn. Yeah. Because then it could be a boy or a girl. What's the back story.

[00:47:03] There's. My counsellors. She's a stripper. I got out of it.

[00:47:09] Is Enough of that.

[00:47:13] Stay with me and said Didn't my sister know about it but that is really interesting because I am a firm believer in you know it's the little things that matter in terms of marketing. And. I found I found. It very weird like having a nice bright happy conversation with the client and then you know I once said I want to claim that they haven't paid a bill for quite some time.

[00:47:42] I once sent him an email from my cat. Which was thought which was which was great fun and it was basically you know you don't know me but I'm kind of. I'm not really hungry at the moment you see change was telling me you know you haven't paid the bill and. He's he's a bit worried whether or not he'll be able to. Pay for my food. And this is the type of food that I like to have a lot.

[00:48:07] Was there any kind of money is going to pay your invoice now.

[00:48:13] And that seemed to have the right kind of kind of effect.

[00:48:17] But you know it is something that I I kind of struggle with so I use my cats not full accounting because it was a little bit too fun for accounting. But when I have automated e-mails so good example as you thought my quarry form and I'll personally reply to you. But I also start a series of automations fiction and amalgam so you can sort of illumination. So when they sign up in three days and the same amount and one week send this email back and I think yeah those emails come from my accounts because I thought it would be confusing. I imagine the scenario should just tell them I worry and I reply to all three days and that just happens to be not the same. But that one comes out. I thought I'd be with my kids one here. So James droshky etc. etc. and then like a minute later there's this. You got to get off of your mom. I just saw of be a weird conversation so those e-mails.

[00:49:14] And also when I go on holidays and if we go on leave and as of autoresponder I don't have it respond normally but if I'm going to be away for more than. 36 48 hours I couldn't respond to it. And therefore my cats the story is that I've left the office and the canteens and Stevie and I.

[00:49:31] Don't really know what to do so I'll just leave the city just things.

[00:49:35] I used to I used to have but I saw my seven also responded was I think to six or something like that. Know at the time it just said you just said if you have sent home. Really clever things that I spotted from Firstly I said. I'm on holiday now for the next four weeks. If you send me any e-mails you will be deleted and I will not read. Please send it back. And I didn't. I still read. Yeah but actually it was really helpful because it meant that people would. Think. And then send me an e-mail when I was when I was back. Yeah. That was a really good time. And the other thing that I learned one of my bosses had a rule on how if he was put into an e-mail. Don't he replied. Automatically and say. Thanks for copying me into the air just to let me know what I saw. Copied e-mail into a different inbox. Sometimes I have a chance to read it. Sometimes I don't. So if it was really important. In your you want to make sure that I got to please just forward it directly to me. It was a really good way of what he was basically saying is stop copying me. But it was a really nice polite way of doing that. Oh there's one more. Kevin Rose who's very seldom going. He. Had in his e-mail signature. It says Sent from my iPhone. Regardless of what he's using. Regardless of if he's on his desk top if he's on his Mac.

[00:51:20] He's just sent from his iPhone because that gives him the licence to send really short responses. It's great something saying I like them. You know it's brilliant. I think that there are lots of these. There are lots of these tricks lots this sort of social engineering in the same way that you have an account scale. I'm going to have an account person known and he or she is going to call robbing banks.

[00:51:46] Fact I think any. Apologies to robbing banks if you're listening I know that you are a very good radio presenter somewhere in.

[00:51:54] Market.

[00:51:56] But. Yeah you know so you know it's those sort of little. Social engineering which I think I think actually you know of can achieve quite a lot without being rude of saying stop copying me into every damn e-mail you.

[00:52:13] Is the most the most corporate thing that could exist as the old going to copy everybody and particularly in radio stations and one person to another about this. So get a copy the program director that epb.

[00:52:28] I think the way of getting rich very very quickly is to become an email consultant and actually train. Train companies on how to use e-mail because nobody nobody has ever had any e-mail. And I'm absolutely convinced that if you win 10 you can't e-mail me. BP I was challenging 50 of a day. And you know it just makes your day. Just checking in now. I think you know an awful lot. With that in box. My goodness also very good. A very good tool for getting rid of a lot of. This stuff. You can leave. Some. Recommend people. You know.

[00:53:19] I was part of the two men team then transferred all of the DG regional radio e-mail accounts into the brand new something costs me. So of media capital. The LG radio merge store.

[00:53:34] Bought each other in this podcast you're currently in the business email server and part of the key because we experience it on the r.g. capital side of things.

[00:53:45] Acors e-mail is still fresh in 2010. Very full. And so as part of bringing them all in we thought this be skilful.

[00:53:56] In algorithms. So.

[00:54:02] Just in case of chains that you know it took a couple of my.

[00:54:10] Those that are from a different culture. They use a lot more so they are using a lot more. There was more push for more groups and all of a sudden there was more groups and there was users all partner or partner it's the southern district of purdon Directors with grey hair all pretty good apps everywhere pregnant with a job tomorrow.

[00:54:34] I know exactly. I am I'm absolutely convinced. That you know there is a there is a really rich scene. Of. You know. Just. The amount of savings that you could make a company. I'm sure just by turning around and telling people how to use e-mail or rather how not to use it. Would be really interesting. And you know I used to I used to have a rule that if the person. If a person was a couple of floors away from me. But in the same building I would just say I'm sending them because that's much more interesting and sometimes they're not. But you actually got to get it get out of your desk you can talk to.

[00:55:18] This is where slack and also the recently released Microsoft teams. Yeah there's a Microsoft one. And guess what. Google now have a new messaging service. That's what we can do with a new messaging service from Google. That only one I believe is called Meet.

[00:55:36] Fujisaki customers. But you know it's it's a thing that everybody is now working. But it just. It just changes. Email from being in an inbox to you know being in a browser windows now is not something exciting.

[00:55:52] James give yourself a plug where do we find you if you want to pay you to speak or give us a black eye on you.

[00:56:01] Well so my my personal web site is James Dr. krzysztof hands that so you just type in James to Thailand and into your web browser and you'll find me. My media website. And by the way that's where you get my newsletter.

[00:56:16] Somebody who tries to sell himself as he sees it. This is a particularly bad selling job.

[00:56:21] But no we are. And if you're interested in the media in general if all of this talk about radio is so picture interest the media talk in fact is the place to be find lots of information about Australian media UK media Irish media and. Other countries. Come on media time in favour you sign up to a. Automated daily e-mail with media news and jobs and my canned stuff. Thanks for joining us. Thank you very much.

[00:56:53] If you like to hear more of us do this podcast head to unpopular dot show. That's right no though no dot com none of that stuff. It's a new age of new cool domain names unpopular. So if you want to read my free blog unpopular. East as under the unpopular unpopular. Esty. And also there's the paid members what which have got to realize and I think if you've got ideas for other people the interview on this podcast for things to write about on the free blog or for tutorials videos how tos articles medal right before the headboard Please show me an email. Josh at Josh whithers dot com dot a you have an amazing book.