An Unpopular Day, James Day

February 13th, 2017 · 44 mins 48 secs

About this Episode

James Day is a good friend of mine, who also happens to be one of the leading wedding photographers in the world. I've helped him with lots of business automation and customer journey before today, so before I left his house this morning I had to record a podcast with him!

In this episode we talk about sample wedding albums that you leave with wedding vendors and venues, and also automating the photo album process using Gravity Forms and Zapier.


[00:00:00] Hello I'm Josh Withers. This is the unpopular podcast. It's a podcast from the unpopular community and you could find this podcast already at [00:00:07] [1.1] is the membership blog. And there's a free blog at unpopularity. The idea with this is that we have a church to business people that are friends of mine. We have a chat about their business and how we can lubricate things and make things a little bit better. This is episode three, episode one and two are both from wedding industry people and also from males. And I do want to try and get some diversity happening. That is happening but I haven't received a James' house and so like this would be a waste of opportunity.

[00:00:35] James hello. Hello there to you James day. Wedding Photographer I live near Sydney by the beach which is where we are right now.

[00:00:46] It's the most Australian thing, Sydney by the beach. Can you see the opera house from your house? Almost.

[00:00:54] I'm really glad we can't. I'm very glad that I'm not that close to Sydney.

[00:00:58] Yeah. Well could you get to the beach at Bulli. It's just one bloke with the dog and it's probably a good bloke right James. But what do you give him an insight into you and what you do like like what makes you unpopular.

[00:01:16] So many things make me. Well I I think the main thing I do is I photograph weddings as I said before. That's been sort of my one and only big career. That's that's all I've ever done I've had a little little. Flirts with other things before I got started as a photographer.

[00:01:36] What's the what's the furtherest flirt from wedding photographer like like where you're a stripper at some point or works in the gym as a personal trainer really.

[00:01:46] Once upon a time I was super fit I'm just super fat.

[00:01:51] Yes so my friend James is a personal trainer you should talk to him about recent tips and stuff.

[00:01:58] Yeah a lot has changed since then. But yeah so I think I've probably photographed in the realms of 600 weddings I've been to lots and lots of crazy parties going crazy and the radio show on Saturday though that was like mind blowing me crazy and I'm in love.

[00:02:14] I love being part of ridiculously nuts wedding celebrations. So when people would just go there. We're here to celebrate mass. Let's go all out.

[00:02:24] So I like that.

[00:02:28] I think some people the whole unpopular philosophy is that you don't have to be everyone's insert business name like everyone's photographer everyone's whatever but you can kind of go niche and you can try and figure out what makes you new. And so how do you kind of identify that like in a line up of like up in Sydney. I'm guessing there's at least a thousand one hundred dollars. I don't know.

[00:02:53] Like I'm just saying at the moment that any research but I'm sure there's a lot I think there's probably a thousand people who are wedding photographer. To have a point so.

[00:03:03] So they. Because the whole popular thing is that there's a massive amount of people. How do you make how do you know militia. Well how do you kind of describe it.

[00:03:13] Well firstly it's taken me a while to work this out with America from country Ahmed out where I found that a lot of the people that were just booking me anyway were my kind of people because I was shooting weddings in my hometown with people with similar brains. But then when I moved town that was when things went a little bit bonkers you know. So I moved from a town of 20000 to a city of what sitting in four million to do the least 2 3 and probably I don't know it's huge. And I found that I was I was working on a lot of people from very different backgrounds who had very different expectations and that weren't necessarily matched up to how I'd spend you know whatever it was at that point the seven seven years learning how to become a staffer.

[00:04:02] So because in armidale it's qualcomm's gone with the makers or certainly not so common I should say.

[00:04:08] It's a bit fancier no like it was you know I was shooting a lot of weddings on private property. You know marquee out in the back and mum's place the wedding I had in fact Yeah. So they they kind of made eventually got married. So I got married my mum's house and then I mark out the back. So you see it right naturally by default. I found my niche just because that was everyone pretty much who I like is now. But then when I came here it was a different story. So it's been it's been quiet. It took me a few years to really work out who I was trying to reach and who I definitely didn't need to reach because it was just a real mismatch when it came to the expectations that they had no expectations that I kind of went into a wedding with. And I'll tell you what since making those adjustments when it comes to working out who I want to work with.

[00:05:07] There has been far less headaches I see.

[00:05:12] I see a lot of people getting married and myself. And I always ask them about photographers and why they hired women. Because most people are getting some really awesome insight like wow I can finally cracked the photographer code on them and then make us laugh and serve in a disco we'll go to the photography world. But I think this is and I'm sure you'll find a similar thing as a child of market research.

[00:05:35] But when it comes to actually hiring more any anyone whether it's a bricklayer through the photographer. No. In the end no one really like has this solid thing. Well there's the odd couple like we just knew we had to have you bring them in like that. Like I didn't find that helpful. Like it's lovely it's such it's like it's such a such almost like a blessing. Oh cool. Thank you for having me. But but have you. Have you figured it out. Have you been like what people really like it when I shoot in lives get photography used and still to understand what I think about. Yeah.

[00:06:06] What it wasn't about me it's about meeting people and and just I want work out. Would I go to this wedding as a guest and I want my couples to work out. Would we hire this guy just come on and hang out with us.

[00:06:19] So you say you get nothing to do with the logo on the black thing in your hand.

[00:06:23] It has nothing to do with that. Even almost has nothing to do with my pictures. That has most to do with like oftentimes would be nice if there wasn't in my hands and they weren't coming to me for photography would why would I actually write my dinner.

[00:06:38] And would they write me out of it you know. So for me I mean when I'm hanging out with a couple I always want to meet the people I work with. Before before I actually agree to doing it before I want them to ask me to do it.

[00:06:51] Yeah. Then I can sort of gauge whether or not there's that much there is a little bit like dating almost.

[00:07:00] Who is it. I mean for me wedding photographs are. They're in their essence they should be intimate. Portraits of moments that that I witness them share. And I became part of that moment. So I feel like when I when a client is looking through their images if they are looking through those remembering a moment where the photographer was barking orders. Or just on and on. On the other side rather than part of their team and they're not going to have the same connection to the images that they would as if it was like their best friend who together and I think that's why aren't all of your fellow selfies that.

[00:07:41] Would. Make it very intimate. I actually took the wedding on Saturday.

[00:07:49] I was dancing with the bride for ages and ages while photographing her. It just became it like as it was this crazy connection we had where we just think we became good mates. Yeah and you know it just became natural I'm just I shockingly selfish that a designated driver.

[00:08:07] But yeah I mean and that's the thing that's going to test for me. I'm like I couldn't imagine myself dancing with these people on my wedding night because I don't go. I was going to fit in enough that.

[00:08:19] I wouldn't feel awkward or be doing that that I don't feel like I need to step right back and just let them do their thing 100 percent of the time I can actually get in there and say hey we might stay out there and be together.

[00:08:31] I'd love to see if we got in that selfie thing we're like those like professional selfie sticks like like man does men make a selfie stick. If

[00:08:39] they don't they should they should. I think that they definitely something to.

[00:08:45] We might want to put a patient on a low light because I wouldn't I don't like like what is the expensive look on the 9000 with a Or like I would want to put a couple of those multicoloured on like my front door so if you stick the laborde from a guy at the front of the loo if you want to talk business things about what I want to talk to you about.

[00:09:07] I wanna make something want to get to the because we've done lots of nerdy things just not on podcast together.

[00:09:13] But modem arm asked him her Facebook group about albums. He did talk to her about well why why why now seems a thing.

[00:09:24] Why. It like oh cause I've got like I've just thought about this but I just made Talk about living in this digital world where nothing really exists.

[00:09:36] And I think that on someone's most precious day you know one of the most fun days of my life. It's nice to be able to hand them something and go hey this thing actually happened. This existed this celebration that we had. Here's proof 10 digital is great but for me it's almost just it's the road that gets us. We're wanting to go here. So you know whereas you don't that can be fun. In the end you're not going down the road forever. We're going to go somewhere else. You know we're going to stop going to whatever. So for me having that proof is important I think in having something tangible at the end of the day is is crucial. You know people spend a lot of money on their weddings and they've got some really really important people that. Aren't in them. And it has and it can actually be handed on that will be appreciated in exactly the same way as they appreciate the first time they held it you know potentially 100 years later. That's pretty that's pretty special. You know the same pages that they flip through their great great grandchildren will flick through and have a sense of I have come from. Where's that jpa. Who knows where it will end up. Who knows how to enjoy it if it still can be enjoyed I wasn't accidentally deleted. But I think there's a role for both.

[00:10:56] I am I would hope I'm not nearly as friendly as nerdy a friend I want to take. I take them out of the fight. They don't exist. No access. So I'm a. Like I'm I'm actually plagued by this issue I'm about to bring up our digital photos so I can tell you right now that I've got a Dropbox like I don't believe literal.

[00:11:20] The company Dropbox and all my images are stored folders and it's a bit messy in some places in some places I've actually done some work on it tied it up and I will see what used to be called iPhone urges Apple photos which syncs up amongst my own devices and so when I take a photo goes into there and then also personal photos that I want to keep in my kind of world. If I want to show you a third I make sure it's all my photos and it all seems so. I cloud and then those two things all sync up with Google Photos which is already this is a mess. And please don't read. I'm not saying this is the best system but this is just me trying to have backups because I imagine if I lose a device or if something gets stolen or whatever. We even Dropbox could go out of business. There's no trouble is just a company they can go to business to shut down so I want to have backups because my photos are important to me. But these these memories these images are important to me and like you and I work worth reporting or photographer friends and I really thought for a long time I think we should talk to you about about how best to deliver photos because like right near the top we recorded this on. If you looked on the site. There's no old US people it's you'll uspc. But if you don't live in your CBC things old who can read them. I don't feel there is one particular way to deliver photos.

[00:12:37] Well that's all I'm really plagued unplugged whether it's because he sends in a Dropbox link. But then that's a little bit of bragging. Like it's not really honestly brand.

[00:12:45] How can I answer that. Yes I mean you can say it it's easier to use.

[00:12:49] Have you tried to access pixi Sit on an apple or an iPhone. It's hell. So like I don't there's one particular way but deliver me just this way.

[00:12:58] And so really a couple of months ago really I was worried about this because I was actually really playing by the issue that there is no good way because even if we found the perfect why not just say Dropbox make this awesome Some Why do you like it. They decided to take on photo delivery. Even then the delivery photos and cheap pig and jpa yourself as as plagued format. Whereas if you actually if you actually want a GP to last the ages you've got to deliberate like a 10. Make it look like if you really think this jopek to be great forever. You want it to be a big fall because it's everything when you open it when you save it and degrades more. And so if you open and say a j peg 10 times so opg big and savours Draper give people 10 times it will be a drastically different image than I was before because it keeps on compressing it.

[00:13:44] Anything that changes her I don't know if you if you open as a pig and save is a great big recompress is that every time and not just say I guess just make that clear.

[00:13:53] If you receive a jpa from a fridge I never get you and you just if you view it you hear it it's fine.

[00:13:58] Basically if you make it changes every saving so that there's a point to if you open and save ajp big enough it will be a blur because the jpa fulfullment is always like how high compresses more as every time. Incremental change so jpc is not the best format to live images of rules. So anyway the whole the whole conversation is played so I just want on this journey like like what. Like what's the best one of the photos I thought. Let's look at Apple apples possibly the nerdiest most intelligent company on the planet right in the digital space. They're doing the smartest stuff I got the most intelligent people that day. They do photos they got photo technology they got the photos up and I cloud all that. But how does Apple deliver photos.

[00:14:39] They release books.

[00:14:42] That's almost the end result.

[00:14:45] They did it and last year they literally released two books they released the book that new and I can't buy.

[00:14:50] It was the it was a book that was delivered to executives and also to photographers that were involved in the shot on iPhone campaign. So they delivered an album book to them. And also last you delivered that 20 year book. Did you see that. I did.

[00:15:04] I was when you when you you said books were meant like you know how through to forestry we could do that.

[00:15:10] I think you could see it ultimately that everyone seems to recognize that the end result of those images they should end up tainted in some way. Yeah.

[00:15:19] And shit like Apple the digital company in the world is like we've got a fever of photos of our products in the last 20 years.

[00:15:26] Hell we put these in the books prechter which just blows my mind. I can't remember what Morgan asked about.

[00:15:34] I'm just not I can tell you he asked what the perfect size for a Sample album.

[00:15:40] OK well you know we have not touched on that at all.

[00:15:46] It was sort of the same way.

[00:15:48] I think that's the first thing we need to ask because you know I'm sure there's some photographers listening but there's also you know people who have no idea what we're even talking about.

[00:15:56] So for me a sample album is just a way of being able to share my work with others in a way that will produce an emotional response but also a response that helps them attach a value to my work because there is a sales cycle but yet because they're all doing it basically because I recognize that often digital is so associated with free. Yeah sure. So. So for me I want people to experience my work through a book format that has value. Yeah I heard it saying they can flick through it. It might have a certain texture a certain smell if it's leather or whatever. You know there's there's a real honest to it you just can't get digital. So for me I have books that couples can flip through when they meet me.

[00:16:46] You know I had books that couples can flip through at a wedding venue so that their lives that they live you visit like this they would do all of that stuff. So he was really a stage. Just just you're not there at all. I rock up and like hey I want to get married when you have a wedding here on display. One of your books.

[00:17:03] Exactly. Exactly so. So I create books for those venues to show off them first and foremost to show off the venue because I recognize that the only real way to attract people to yourself is by making others look good. But

[00:17:18] I'm sure and each one of those images in the book is your watermark on the bottom right.

[00:17:22] No way. I

[00:17:26] think I think they're moving to the front page. I know. Now the thing is often often these things are enjoyed in the presence of others and that the other person can usually explain who it was.

[00:17:39] And then you have your verbal recommendation rather than having to ram it down someone's throat that this is who like it almost avoids the conversation if you put your name on it. If you don't put your name on it then it requires a conversation to find out. And that conversation will hopefully.

[00:17:55] Well if you put your logo is like a pattern across all images like all really that's OK.

[00:18:00] Is that like em so much so you can see the images underneath. You know that's just an some mystery to it. No it looks so.

[00:18:08] So if I place a fairly big importance on several items in my business and as I said I have them at venues and I'd have them I'd probably give them to any key partner who said it works my way. Right. So for me it's primarily vendors. So it's primarily news venues think just because it often goes in someone's journey of planning a wedding. It's always this way but often the couple will start with a very and know look at photographers photographers celebrant or in the first three ish conversation you know. So. That's right. So that's for me why I place in that now I've made a few mistakes when it comes to sample albums.

[00:18:53] And one of them is getting a little cheap and saying why I'm giving this talk for nothing. I probably shouldn't invest too much money in it. And that was a big mistake for me. So I've done that for some places and I've very quickly replaced those because I realized that their recommendations just weren't coming through because they were basically if if then you have five or six different albums to show off of different photographers. A big little bit longer is on top. Yeah exactly. I think they're going to pick their album that obviously shows off their new best year 6 or so. Yeah.

[00:19:26] The one that's the one that will also help. Position them as a high end menu potentially. So if you've got this beautiful beautiful album that looks like it cost a thousand bucks verses 50 bucks. I know which kind of thing and pull out first. Absolutely so. And the second thing is if that's the first experience and potential client is having with your brand and you're wanting to sell my book. I mean are you wanting to say to them hey are you going to you know like you're basically saying to them if you show in your book hey guys you probably buy a beautiful book for me. If you show them a book that you would retail from 4000 dollars then you saying to them hey guys you probably to buy four thousand dollars from me and they're going to grow to love what they're saying. You know so I think that's what we want. That's what we saw. That's what we come up with to work through this format. We want that from you. So putting sample albums in places where people can find out about me for the first time. So it might be in a couples home.

[00:20:31] So having albums you know my couples actually having albums not just my feeling because of the loss we can we put them I would remind everyone wash their hands on. It was it was it was it was all mazing.

[00:20:43] You're such a good experience and the likelihood that the photographer is brought up especially if one were people looking at it is looking for a photographer.

[00:20:52] You know if they're dating maybe on maybe one day you know they're just following away. I mean they were actually friends it was never totally territory full That's right.

[00:21:00] Yeah it's put more. Whatever it is. So we asked him if he thought he he's talking about size. Like somebody said it was only centimetres. Or was he talking about like number of pages or is it just me or. I don't know. But I called them and asked for it. Let me go. And so to come in it's you that. Let's listen to.

[00:21:25] The guy. He's out the window crying. He's very creepy.

[00:21:30] So look first for me I want to simply model what I want to sell. I want to show off what I want to sell. So I don't want to sell people a tiny book with few pages. I want to you know it's like you go in for a test drive of a car. They often show you is a space.

[00:21:46] Yeah. Yeah they're not showing you the bottom line with cloth seats. They're showing you the top on the leather seats and then of the Bose stereo. Yeah.

[00:21:54] Or they'll say either end of the spectrum. What a both. Yeah. And then you're like oh yeah I want to paint abberations. I'm showing a pimped out version now for me. I've also got to show what I believe in. I don't believe in massive albums which aren't going to be left out.

[00:22:11] So I purposely because it just wouldn't match the way but metaphorically. So there's bigger albums that are me you know you might be getting like a 14 inch by 14 inch album. But for me that's also got me too clunky. When that vendor go over you guys to pick up that book. Yeah.

[00:22:29] They're not going to pick up a 14 by 14 you know mutual of all of ours. Seth Godin he he released the book you can't buy anymore. It was a book of all those blog posts and he was just as computer project I'd love to spend 50 or whatever books came in the mail the other day and it's literally I don't I would be.

[00:22:49] What's it like. Like almost a foot and a half long. It's massive. You told us something to them and it's really cool. Like I said Go the book is a book that you can't buy but it doesn't like it lives in hiding because it's impractical to have out anywhere.

[00:23:06] And even like a friend Cameron Cameron who is a surfer and going to like get this book and we both looked at it and can open up one page and it was impractical to use it or to view it. So imagine this the same photo albums.

[00:23:18] Exactly. I mean it all happening so big if it was of the early books I made were huge.

[00:23:26] There were three in size three or the size of the second one and it's probably about three inches thick.

[00:23:33] I went I went back to some old clients who received those three books and just spoke to it like old friends whenever he would hire me. And I said to him hey read books now. And then I went to live and boxing my last summer movie. It was under the bed yeah often because it was too big to keep out. And I'm like well how's that going to save them all my business is not going to save anyone apart from you know the dust mites that are going to be Pages under the bed.

[00:24:01] Well if I can I'm up in Brisbane at the time meeting with an album company I say I'm with some therapies up there and I just picked up my first eight by eight sample and I was going to. No Photography connection every time and I had this ache my memory just laughed at me like you know as if you cline's going on an album that sucks.

[00:24:26] And I said Well I think they will.

[00:24:29] It's really interesting because my sales went through the roof you know because I had a product that I believed in. I was like day three never made sense. I just thought that's talking about today just have the biggest outcome with the big ones.

[00:24:40] Little norm for a while was it like big big big big. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:44] Yeah. I'm pretty sure that was. I mean I was living in little old island out in time so I don't know a lot of people were dying but you know for me that was sort of what was marketed to me by the companies. So for me I buy it 10 by 10 right now is the size. But when it comes to the pages I definitely have a sample book. I will definitely put in a good number of pages that will help tell the story about what happened on the date that I'm showing. So I'm telling the story if want a full coverage may looks like. So for me it's about find a happy medium with pages and size it doesn't need to be the biggest you know. But I also wanted to get it cheaper. So it's not just about the size. It's also about the quality. So I don't think there's like a perfect size but you've just got to believe in what you're selling and have a good reason for it. And I really think about the kind of clients who are booking you say if you've got a client who you know it's all about being understated they're going to be look look as though they're the wanker with you know the portion whatever it is you know they're the guys who buy their Toyota Camry. Because they don't want to come across too much like a poser. You know when if they want to show their mates a winning album then probably they probably want to show them signs a little bit understated.

[00:25:59] So it's not like hey look at us look at our glitzy gold covered book with fancy. This that not. It's to feel authentic to them.

[00:26:10] I want to talk about automation but I want to read you just in America with a vision of WPP. I was at a conference Expo conference.

[00:26:20] It's truly an expo would be probably the closest thing you. So there's a trade show. But there's also a lot of speakers who are putting on different shows. Then there's a bit of everything. So you've got a lot of breakaway things where you know staff might be like Hey we're gonna go shoot in Death Valley this you know this morning.

[00:26:40] Fifty bucks come along and there's like stuff that's organised by the originals there's nothing organised on your forehead you know there are people who make my books based in Iowa. They've been made my books for four years now and I found out about them through basically this offering amazing customer service. And I was like I want to be you know.

[00:26:58] So now I am you sort of sort of this new show. So what's this. This is a 250 dollar gift card to vision art. This was completely unplanned by the way. This isn't Mona. It is an art but it isn't i was advertised to. Lucky he there's lying on the desk and I thought I'd love to go that it was because I'm like oh I get photographers make albums when I don't make albums. I'm not another guy at all.

[00:27:25] So basically these guys gave me a couple of ways to give away when I was hanging out and I have that one left over.

[00:27:32] Can I only use this for Jordan Mel's album.

[00:27:37] It's there on the on the phone card that's all I think.

[00:27:41] I think if you've got a come up with a different name it should still apply.

[00:27:47] So you know what the movie is together first person to email him. Him get this as a gift card.

[00:27:53] Yes.

[00:27:53] Do we say it's a 250 dollar gift card to resell all competition kind of voice like 250 do those. And actually we said you just did in fact go back kind of look I bought I'm ready for 10 years and I never set a price like that. I did this purely for catalyst.

[00:28:11] So you know the awesome thing about this gift card is it's probably worth more like 500 dollars to you. I know this is U.S. dollars to let's say 50 us but it's more like 500 US simply because if you haven't used vision out before they give you 50 percent off any sample no cover up as well. Also make it basically to 500 all book. Giving this show a gift card in exchange. And you're set to go to class.

[00:28:38] It's a good way to get started. OK. Let's bring out the podcast Let me solve a problem in your world James writes What's a painful thing in your business that we can hopefully lubricate or automate. Texting is unnecessary.

[00:28:50] I guess so.

[00:28:53] I mean you've helped me automate some parts of my business. Are you using a peer and if you prefer you know creating some apps.

[00:29:00] But one thing that we haven't done and it's created a little bit of a headache.

[00:29:04] He is working out a good way to follow up on clients who have purchased an album because basically the process for us is they say they want an album we invoice them for it and then three or four weeks after the wedding we ideally want to get in touch and say hey let's meet up to design this album. I was part of that. We need to obviously get them. We need to get them to do a few things and one is to favourite the top 200.

[00:29:30] In season through I use insta France very similar to that I'm typing so I might there's no answer over there any time in the background completely here.

[00:29:40] Yeah.

[00:29:41] So our top 200 images then sorry need to favourite names. I need to make a time that's a week after at least a week after that. To me that's just that I've got time to get it printed because I at the top 200 printed me literally sit down and scrapbook them together while I create digitally as well. So we basically need to say hey it's time let's get this stuff and let's get let's get the show on the road. Now at the moment we have a forum that. Some clients would fill out and say hey want an hour way. If they do that on an original booking Sometimes it's done. Just turning now to say hey can you add an album to our booking. Basically I don't have a way where I can go. I know these people have an hour. Are you know wanting to add to their package. And let's start them on a minimal workflow and literally every day when I was on my way home from America.

[00:30:35] Kath spent the day going through all of the invoices to work out who had ordered an album and her name. Following up on it she spent half a day doing this because we didn't have a system to help that happen automatically.

[00:30:50] So so I was like people that know me if you listen to podcasts for a while you'd know that I need I need to have.

[00:31:00] The needs to be a journey before we have any tools automations that needs to be like this track we're going to send people down. And I feel like this is almost like a separate side track to your normal photography because it's almost like it's own product and obviously the protocol design and only design a little mini journey on the side.

[00:31:18] So tell me like I'm just like look we haven't prepped for the sort of I think of my feet.

[00:31:25] I think in a good way to start is I'm sitting I just a different sort of person and popular company actually is about sending people out to a separate page on your website whether it's for information kind of consumption like hey here's information on this or in this stage I think it would be good to send them to a page which is something like James that I can do slash album by.

[00:31:50] I'm going to do my solo album Get some sugar for ccma.

[00:31:56] And that page is a. So you've chosen to buy an album. It was. And the reason I want to put it into a form is because when it's in a form we have a structured way where we have a structure collection of data. We have like a field of dobos is his name.

[00:32:14] Got their name email him. That kind of thing. So this is going to be Wang date and so.

[00:32:21] So here's my thought process that because I know on the initial reservation form they can ticket box for an album.

[00:32:28] And what some people do at that point.

[00:32:30] So what we do is if do take a box that we would send them an automatic email with this with a link to hey you've already you've ordered an album please let us form the same form. If later on in the process Heck even after the wedding at the same form is applicable for people from the very start of your wedding journey to the end that you've chosen to get an album. Fill out the storm. And it starts the process. So the process goes like me. You might tell me there's other things we need to know but I want to know if there couple I'm contacting email maybe I'll throw a phone number just again just to be sure to be sure when they're back in the honeymoon and they're going through getting that first. So you're saying you say your process and then honeymoon date maybe just for you or any information because as know it's nice and early in the morning because when we're trying to set a date here today it means you want to do it after they come back now and then.

[00:33:24] What we basically want to know what our restrictions are.

[00:33:27] There no point saying hey three weeks after your wedding we need to design our next for you.

[00:33:32] So maybe the wedding day just for your personal preference maybe the day that we're going to hinge this whole process off is I'm back from honeymoon from back from honeymoon day or not going on just a date when I'm ready.

[00:33:44] Yeah. So here's the thing from this form.

[00:33:49] We want to we want to set a few things in motion. Now if I was doing this for my business I would put this into a To Do list.

[00:33:59] I'd make some actions and to do some some in to do it. And what I do as I said the most is a great thing to do to like things I need to do. And I would be proud because you're in.

[00:34:15] You would assume that almost as a people. And then Xavier would put a few things into action. I'm assuming you probably start and boys might be drafted invoices voices 0 police in Boise. Once was there. Yeah. So I started drafting motions evenly months together. I'm sure because every woman is going to be with different beliefs you start a draft so you can looking draft and say these drafts that are going to work on. And then and then from there I would just I just have an injury whether it's a Google seat or even just an entry in the form of a visa or people that I've ordered.

[00:34:48] So Lisa's a list. Nothing else. There's a list of people that have ordered albums and if they're not in know it's their fault not your fault. And yet because really you want the customer of agenting to be awesome and easy. But you also need them to take ownership of it. And if it comes to a point of like nine months later like oh we never got a album like you never filled out the form.

[00:35:08] So that's how you say you want to make it. Probably the most loving kind way beyond any of our problem.

[00:35:16] And then from here it's going to come in to what works best for you. We see because we've started using calendar lane. So part of the AP process might be once a fit of the form you send them an e-mail maybe send them an email on that date and when they get back from their honeymoon maybe one day later. And that e-mail says hey guys please choose your images from numsa is a story using hangings to participate. So please choose your 200 images and insta proofs and then and then maybe five days after that because it's aping you and say wait five days and maybe wait five days means something other than another email saying let's make it time to to create your album and send it to the only link to me to make an album and maybe make a separate calendar event.

[00:36:08] We've got to get a it it a Skype eating time a meeting so maybe there's a third one because I don't know if you want to have different parameters different days. I mean I absolutely stand and say he had only event type before for that. And please make a time here. So let me check. Let me see if I'm checking off all the things. First of all we've got a list of people that want an album and if nothing else we can just reference a list. If it was me I'd send all the information from I listened to a Google sheet just so I've got a database. You're not really using Google Docs. I mean I hate. So you just have a back up all the information would know it would be in your gravity forms anyway so that's it's already stored. Another way to do it would be if you're using tables for database which is a cool way to collect information and set of data tables. But anyway you've got a list. Secondly create the invoice just so because the money side is important even if it's just a draft I know something in my life I like I credit not a Russian voices are automatic processes. So every day or four or five I'll just go to the sales section 0 and click on sales and this shows you how many drafts invoices there are and sometimes are going to leave a few slides because automations like a certain credit to invoices only one or whatever.

[00:37:29] But I'd rather have too many draft invoices and not enough and go out and go in there and edit it. And so for you'll to be chosen these options for that. So of course this much in Boise even if the invoice date is set in the future or whatever. You've you've got the information is certain zero.

[00:37:47] So we've covered off the list of covered of the money.

[00:37:52] Because we've got the date from their honeymoon back in a.p. you can say on that date send them an e-mail and you say hey choose your priest look into your proof and choose a top 200 favourite images.

[00:38:04] And then finally you can put another dollar in 46 days after that. Now please make it time to catch up. And that way you've set them on a journey. You may still have to follow up.

[00:38:14] But at least in your mind. Yeah. Like not having a home. Yep yep.

[00:38:20] Whereas at the moment it's because you know me I will sit through the cracks here. Then even you know I've got some clients up made in late last year where we've just been trying to find a time to meet. But because I haven't said car and we find out yet. Yeah it's this constant back and forth and it's not easy for anyone.

[00:38:38] So that's that's probably pretty high on my list of things to get sorted out. Because it's not good for anyone.

[00:38:44] So from here I am. Are you seising that sub forms. James they do x y z so we're set up on James that I go x y z which is just the word presence or running gravity forms that are purely for forms that would set up a form.

[00:38:58] We got to find a sexy you name it album by album.

[00:39:04] Yeah. Sasha albums stanier is just lush albums and the form says you've decided to get an album.

[00:39:13] Please fill out the form so I start the process a couple name phone number and email or phone or just for reference point and way they just reference point because sometimes you've got a few weddings a few names you say this scene reference point signal.

[00:39:25] What's that wedding. Because we're stupid sometimes.

[00:39:30] But you got to get the e-mail and the couple name and the date back on their honeymoon.

[00:39:36] They are there but when it comes to albums. What. What kind of duellist not get into products here like album X Y or Z pricing or you leave me like this. I definitely need to also provide them with a reminder of the upgrade costs less and that would be something from the very beginning. So I literally just bought a book. I need to make sure. Like I said they're still committed to the fact that they want a book would that be made sense.

[00:40:03] On completion of this form. So here's a here's the price list.

[00:40:09] I think I'll certainly to make it available before they fill out the forms and say it you know it's a minor part of a terrorism condition if you understand the different costs associated they can care. So they're almost like signing another contract to say hey we want an ATM and we get with you. We understand that you know if this goes on within six months we void the fact we are now well you know just little things I don't know.

[00:40:33] I wouldn't not trying to make it too complicated. But part of the form I'd say and I'm here are the costs associated and all that and the simple but accurate way. And then simply form if that information is part of the form of as in some other form you could submit that's acceptance of that. You know having a box to check check here to say I've read the terms of conditions non-judgemental of the conditions what I was doing. But I definitely have that information as part of the call.

[00:40:59] So here is an emotional call. And one thing I would add in front of us are there's one thing I wish I had done sooner. Not 14 years down the track is really just sitting there like say some time frames. Yeah. So I basically let it in and I mean it clearly that if they're going to buy an apple we expect that this will be done in a week. It'll be done in two. And we'll do this in three kind of thing rather than communicate that then it's melanoma online.

[00:41:27] Because if I look at we have we have an album from nearly three years ago that's not completed. And I know full well that that couple is probably out there saying hey James doesn't on our album. But the fact is we've chased them up countless times. Yeah. And a book committing to doing it. I mean I can't I really can't solve a piece of things.

[00:41:50] But the next mutation wasn't set up front and now it's just become one of those things where it's like Oh we probably should and know now it's almost to awkward point.

[00:41:58] It's like when you been working with someone in the office and three years and you sort of know the name you're not asking their name three of them yeah.

[00:42:04] You're not pretty here Josh. Exactly. So yeah. If you're looking at implementing albums and look at your time frames make and communicate those really clearly up front because it can be one of the biggest hassles.

[00:42:19] James give yourself a plug to deliver to you on your business where they can find you a line the kind of funny into the tinder. Could this just please be funny.

[00:42:29] Someone found someone surfing like a fake account with photos of cathelineau umble that I'd never heard of. Is it his point. And then I find out that. Apparently eye I'm there as a couple to kind of meet other couples so I'll just ask you to tell you where they can find you.

[00:42:46] You've literally stumbled into it like so Bumble dot com dessert.

[00:42:49] I have no idea what your perfect little will such sometimes and to know I don't know but there will come a day to enjoy. I have.

[00:42:59] Three days to enjoy a good long weekend if you know how. It's really not that funny but he's laughing way too hard.

[00:43:14] I just happen that actually find me on Instagram. James day weddings is the Instagram.

[00:43:23] Sorry James are running into Facebook. Come up. If they go to jail they knock on that are you.

[00:43:29] I mean well so why. Because at this stage as a point of recording you've got two websites going on.

[00:43:38] Don't get me started the said de la dot com that it is on who is paying money for it's finished. It's like it's it's a fully functional website. But.

[00:43:47] So I mentioned that they'll stop and reassess your existing one but your new website about to launch is like your three quarters finished there which is James did not condemn you yeah.

[00:43:56] So yeah it depends how quickly you probably do it today.

[00:44:03] Don't know don't go down that don't country they go today way a few days later that he was a really interesting idea trying to create a bit of a new customer journey new customer experience. Yes Mike I applaud your desire to do something new and different.

[00:44:20] SCOTT Well and I get really really antsy and want to try new stuff. But yes I transact gardening now that.

[00:44:29] Really fun. You actually took one of three steps for yourself. It was amazing.

[00:44:32] I took one step by myself and then so after I wrote it I was a little bit disappointed you didn't know yourself.

[00:44:39] That was disappointing.

[00:44:40] Yeah. You like Amy and myself.

[00:44:42] But given time this has been the unpopular podcast. Thank you. My.